Comments

P.S. the more people trade on Betfair the more money Betfair makes... Stefan, and you really think that the creators of Betfair are such shortsighted people? If the ladder was the crucial feature for the starting traders then we already saw this features on the official Betfair site long time ago. Believe me the creators of Betfair aren't such careless people to put their destiny in hands on the apps developers. : - )

Heh... Stefan, when I first time saw BFexplorer I got impression that the person who made it is awesome coder/programmer with willingness to put a lot of effort into his software but differently he isn’t trader. : -)

I was impressed how powerful are some less important features but then I saw that some essential functional at very poor state.    

Stefan, in your previous post you said your opinion about what any starting trader needs for trading and you mentioned the ladder but now think the people who created Betfair are definitely smart people and they have very experienced traders on their side and they know how to make money but why they don't provide the ladder interface on their official web site? They could do that easily with the resource they have and attract much more "starting" traders to trade on their exchange... but why there's no any "ladder" interface at all? Doesn't it look a bit strage to you? : - ) 

14:15 - 15:30

https://youtu.be/BeUKIq90fUQ?t=14m15s

- trailing stop 2 tick -  Indicator goes from 3,15 to 3,05 but Stop Loss not working when LTP is 3,25

Good night friends:

This is a very interesting and necessary debate.

I did not want to intervene, so far, because I know what it asks Ilya not going to get, because it's something I've been asking for many years, to do manual trading with some features that can be used by BFE basic users, ie, without bots.

Stefan, you know, that traders flee from your app, because they do not understand, at the interface they do not see the usual features.

I think the debate is leading to a battle of egos.

You believe that your solutions are valid for all, but others believe that your bots are wonderful for some time, but other times prefer to see what they are doing or what we have done, using simple features that we can check or uncheck.

I think if you did Ilya case, many more traders prove your software. You're driving down the British road with your vehicle with left hand drive, ie, you are going against the majority.

"Your software is probably the best, but do not understand that others want, in England, the steering wheel to the right"

And what does it mean?

Stefan, every piece of software has own conception.

You can not compare using Ladders in GeeksToy vs. Bfexplorer. Cannot compare triggers in Market Feeder Pro vs. Bfexplorer bot ... etc.

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Maybe: would be better write what is better in Bfe instead find mistakes on users, users experiences with others sw etc.

I decided that I would use the BFE "only" for full automated solutions.

I cannot use something like Bfexplorer Console, Ladder (in my opinion confused for in-play markets), ... etc.

I will only use the available scripts or bots. I am not programmer, some times I made mistake, but I do not want to torment and ridicule others to be what I am like a fool.

Here is maybe false hope of something better, but often good will ended frustrated on the half way.

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Too much energy for me...

Starting from bfexplorer  1.7.5743, all “bot triggers” will be released as compiled assemblies as well.

After downloading .zip file from bfexplorer web site, do not forget to Unblock it.

Stefan, without any doubts you do excellent support and no one can't find such excellent support at any other products.

I really appreciate your efforts and I really appreciate that you listen my complains. : - )

Keep up the good job!

I knew you would not be offended. I always listen what users say and take what I think could be a good addition to bfexplorer features, such features are added in hours and not in weeks like other betfair software vendors do.

I added CancelAllBets, as an experiment some users could use, and that was your suggestion. From my point of view I would implement the heartbeat feature as I mentioned and if such feature will be required by some users.

Thanks Miro for your video, and what about Market Feeder settings that would execute a bet placing procedure like bfexplorer bot: “Be the first in queue” does?

Bfexplorer for now offers 8 bots to allow constructing bot strategies:

“Execute on Selections"
"Execute Bots
"Execute On Associated Market"
"Execute Till Target Profit"
"If Then Else"
"Chain Execution"
"Repeat Until"
"Execute Trigger Bot”

In Ilya strategy the missing part was a bot which would cancel bets on other selections and executes further action bot, in this case bot closing a bet position at odds.

I would need more examples of different strategies to develop a general purpose bots.
From this example I can think about extending "If Then Else" bot features.

Stefan, no offense taken! : - )

I just give you my feedbacks/suggestions form trader point of view that's all.  I understand that I might be wrong in every aspect.

It's your software and only decide what's good for it. : - )

Ilya forgive me I was wrong giving you credibility to be an expert in any aspect of this meaning :-) We are both Slavs (I am Slovak, and you are Russian) so I hope you will not take my words too seriously to be offended.

The base feature any starting trader needs is a trading ladder where he can place his/her bets, update them or cancel. The ladder offers Profit column where if a bet is matched it shows your current bet position you can close by hedging when clicking on a profit value. Those are essential features for any trading software to place a bet and take a profit or loss.

The ladder interface is set to be default view when you open bfexplorer. Of course you can create many different workspaces with different layouts and switch off ladders totally if you do not need them.

When betfair trader manages these base features for trading he can go further, and setup one click bet orders which automatically trades out at a target profit or loss, those are betfair bots.

On youtube you can watch many videos with people clicking on ladders. If you have got a strategy you can do what many do manually by using betfair bots, and then you actually do not need a ladder, well maybe only for reading a situation on a market if your trading strategy is executed manually.
Yesterday you posted a comment with user interface (UI) mockup: http://i.imgur.com/AqtWvrJ.png

Showing how UI presenting bets should look like. This is quite funny because bfexplorer is able to present any grid data in tree like structure, and I showed it in my article Cancel Bets on All Markets.
Presenting data in grids is a common UI practice, using grouping, filtering, sorting or searching as well. Actually such features are so commonly used, also by operating system like Windows (just have a look at File Explorer and its grouping features) that I think it is not necessary to explain users how to group, filter or search.

Well, of course all that depends on a software developer if he uses such features in his programs or not. In my video you can see that I used and use such features in my programs.

I changed settings which I showed before.

- Bet placed before In-Play -> Keep in-play
- Green Up -> changed Back bet 1.25 because green up waiting for 1.25 Odds, but Back bet place bet immediatelly

It is many conditions only... and meanwhile place bet and cancel bet

Lay the Field video - in MarketFeeder Pro

https://youtu.be/W4maUAPwpAQ

(only sample - with open markets, edit triggers, turn triggers on)

Stefan, on your place I wouldn't mixed up the "essential" functional and automation/bot functional I would split them.

Because right now BFexplorer looks too complex for "average" trader and not too powerful for the "advanced" trader.  

Stefan, the trick is to know what features the overwhelming majority of traders use and what features are useless.

Heh... what would be if we removed "iBeer" or "X-ray" apps from iPhone? : - ) I think anyone can leave without them just fine : - ) but what if we removed the ability to call or send SMS? That would be tragic... : -)

If you aren't experienced trader and you look at all those features that some platforms offer you might think that all of them are important and essential but the truth is that the only 10% of those features are really used by traders and those 10% features should polished to perfection and when those 10% of features are polished to perfection you can move further and add other functional which is less important.

Stefan, I haven't even started to give you suggestion about automation : -) I started from the "essential" features which should present by default : - ) and probably 80% of all traders would be happy to hanve only those "essential" features and they will be frustrated if they don't them in good state.

You mentioned Cymatic and Geek Toy, but these apps offers 2 – 3 features for automated bet placing like placing stop loss bet or tick offset, therefore in their user interface you can find panels to setup such features.

If I did the same for bfexplorer, there would not be enough screen estate to accommodate setup panels for all those features, therefore I added My Bots view where you can add your required setting for different functions.

For example, there are many smartphones on the market Apple, Samsung, Nokia and many others. They are all different and they all have different features but there's some essential functional which all smartphones offer you - make phone calls : - )

Now image what if there was a smartphone which requires you to spend few hours to figure out how to make calls and every time when you need to make a call it requires more than 10 minutes to setup your phone to make a call? Or what if it requires more than 10 minutes to setup your phone to send SMS...

Heh, I really doubt that such smartphone would be popular : - )  But if you look you see that you can make calls and send SMS by that phone the same as with other smartphones but the amount of efforts it requires to makes calls and send SMS makes this smartphone unattractive.

Yes, in BFexplorer you can have "the essential" functional but it takes too much time to setup simple things and also overall it very hard for "average" trader to figure out how to do that, especially, when "average" trader got used to do that in few clicks and without any efforts.

Ilya, what makes you think that bfexplorer does not offer such essential trading functionality you talk about?

Click on Add a new bot, setup your OCO settings (using Place Bet and Close Selection Bet Position), click on Use Ladder, and clicking on ladder you will place your OCO order with set profit and/or loss target. In Market Bots you can cancel/stop such order, or you can do so by clicking on Stop/Cancel All.

Heh... Stefan, I understand that probably I've annoyed you to death already with my advises/suggestions : -) but I see that you work really hard to improve your software and you do everything and even more to help the costumers so I try to share my experience in order to help you because as I said I have more than 10 years trading experience and I trade many different markets not only Betfair so I know how traders "think" and what they "need".

There are huge amount of traders who need only "essential" functional to trade and they don't want even bother with programing/bots/automation trading because many trading strategies can be done by that "essential" functional. Heh... and probably those traders are overwhelming majority overwhelming. : - )  I've already explained in my previous posts what do I mean when I say "essential" functional.

Those traders aren't coders or programmers and it very might be that their PC skill are even below average level so the easier to configure that “essential” stuff the better for them.

Also many traders comes to Betfair from the equity, forex or futures markets which have more than 25 year history of electronic trade and those traders already got used to some trading functional because it proved by time to be very efficient.

Betfair isn't much different for other market and you don’t need to "reinvent the wheel" here so the same functional as for other market.

Right now Geek Toy offer that "essential" functional and even some little automation with OCO(Order Cancel Order Feature) and probably it’s enough for overwhelming majority of traders and for the most of trades it doesn’t requires to figure out how it works because that functional has been taken from equity trading platform and every trader is familiar with it.

Geek Toy is a paid software but there's also Cymatic Trader which is free(not for too long I think : -)) and has almost the same "essential" functional but only without fully configurable "Stop Loss" order but Given(the author) of the Cymatic Traded said that he’ll add the fully customizable "Stop Loss" in few weeks so Cymatic Trader will be have "the essential" functional and some automation  capability through Excel integration but it needs to be said that for average trader it’s too complex.

Market Feeder lacks the “essential” functional but has extremely "user friendly" automation capability so you can make that "essential" functional and even much more.

Also traders don’t like to share their strategy and only very naive and unskilled traders think that they can find bots or already ready solution which make profit for them because if everybody win money then who lose them? : -)  so any trading platform shouldn’t give any ready solutions/strategy to traders but it should give them tools to create different strategy.

I'm sure the clear winner will be such trading software that can offer the same "essential" functional as Geek Toy and Cymatic Traders offer and the same automation capabilities that Marker Feeder offer.